by Katherine Martinko
Matthew McKean has some advice for parents on how to guide children in finding the right career path. McKean is the chief research and development officer at the Business and Higher Education Roundtable (BHER), a Canadian nonprofit organization, as well as a writer, speaker, and father of two. He spoke to Lianne Castelino, host of Where Parents Talk, about the disconnect that exists between the skills young graduates have and what prospective employers are looking for.
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Welcome to where parents talk. My name is Lianne Castelino. Our guest today is the Chief Research and Development Officer at the business and higher education Roundtable, a not for profit organization that brings together Canada’s largest companies and post secondary institutions. Matthew McKean is also a writer, a speaker at a father of two. He joins us today from Ottawa. Thank you so much for being here. Well, thanks for having me. Really interesting topic, because we are talking about preparing today’s youth for tomorrow’s jobs. And the fact is, is in many cases, we don’t even know what those jobs may even look like. So as a father yourself, what could you offer just generally, to parents who may be listening or watching this interview, in terms of how they can support their children to find a career and a job eventually, that they love for tomorrow?
Such a good question I don’t get, I don’t get to answer this one. Often enough. Although I live and breathe and work in this space, I’m often talking about students who are already in post secondary and are looking to transfer, you know, transition into the workforce. So the opportunity to think about this and talk about it much earlier on is, is super fun. So honestly, my answer right now would be to expose children or young, exposed kids to as many different things as possible. So there’s this this, this popular narrative that you know, the future jobs, there’ll be jobs that don’t exist, that the next jobs don’t exist yet. I don’t know how we then I’ve heard that for a long time, I don’t know how we prepare for them. So then if they if they don’t exist, so But what we know from a lot of the work that we’ve done is that young people, new grads, people entering the workforce need to have transferable adaptable skills, what we call the human skills above and beyond anything else. And that’s what we hear from employers too. So exposing kids, helping them figure out where their interest is, and helping them to develop those skills that aren’t so specific, but we’ll help them transition, develop interest become good workers, I think it’s probably at least the place to start, certainly if they’re really young.
So let me ask you along those lines, then what age do you suggest, in general that that start?
I don’t think there’s a wrong answer to that one. And the sooner the better. So there’s, there’s no scenario in which less education or skills training is helpful. So the sooner we start providing some kind of structured skills training, and that even sounds absurd to talk about that in the context of like preschool or daycare. But I mean, that’s we know, from all the studies that have been done about the the earliest kind of structured education, we can give children, not in advanced mathematics, obviously, but playing in the sandbox with others. That’s all skill building.
So earlier, you mentioned about the jobs of the future that we don’t know even exist yet. Is that a misnomer, then because we hear that being reported and being written about quite often.
It’s might not be a misnomer. I just think it’s a really fun catchphrase for people to use. So, but I think we often I’d be her say, like, we like to do things and solve challenges and solve problems, or at least try to tackle them and make sense of them. But as I said before, I don’t know how you tackle that one, then. So. And so that kind of hyperbole is if nothing else, not super helpful when it comes to talking to young people, because then I don’t know what what you tell them. That’s, that’s my that’s my pushback in that sense.
So how would you characterize the current situation in Canada, as it relates to what’s being taught in colleges and universities versus the skills that employers are actually looking to hire for?
Oh, that’s another good question. And in a lot of ways, it’s the part of the origin story of the business higher education roundtable. A number of years ago, back in 2016, or so CEOs were sitting around a table and identifying and talking about the different skills and talent challenges they were facing, particularly when it came to hiring new entry, new hires. So people, you know, fresh out of post secondary, and one of the things they they commented on our found was that new hires didn’t have the skills, they were looking for the entry level skills they were looking for. Now, when you talk to the post secondary, so the universities and colleges and polytechnics all thought they were doing probably a great job of preparing people for new grads for the world of work. So we saw that there was an opportunity here a disconnect. And so that became part of the origin story of the business higher education roundtable was just to bring together both sides so they could talk a lot more and figure out where that disconnect is and how To improve alignment both on in terms of the skills training and on the the programs that were offered, so that people would graduate into sort of in demand areas. So one of the things we realized along the way was that actually, a good way to do that was to get young people work experience while they were while they were studying. So not necessarily to develop really hard technical skills, but to develop those human skills, social emotional skills that you get from working collaboratively or working on a team. And meeting a deadline, those kinds of things. So that’s very much our that’s very much what we do here at here at V here to try to try to tackle that, that that challenge, so I don’t think we will ever fully solve it. And nor is the goal, perfect alignment between both sides. But But what we realized is that probably applied work experience goes a long way towards improving that improving outcomes for young people when it comes to skill building and hopefully getting companies they new grads with the skill stage.
Let’s backtrack a bit and let me ask you, what do you believe has contributed to this gap in the first place? What are some of those root causes?
Oh, that’s a good question. That’s, that’s a that there’s probably a lot of labor market researchers who would have a better answer than I would to that one. demographic change people aging out and retiring out of the out of the labor market creates, creates big skills, gaps and an opportunity to technological change. But part of the narrative for the longest time to another one of those catchphrases that starts a lot of reports is you know, technology is changing fast. And the world of work is changing fast. And, and this idea that robots and AI are going to disrupt workforce, disrupt the workforce and replace all the humans, that’s not proving to be especially true. I think what we’re seeing, we know how, obviously, machines are replacing some jobs. But what we’re what we’re, of course, seeing is that and finding through through the research is that we need to find new and better ways to work with the machines and work with AI. And the companies that invest as much into the people, as they do into the technology do better and harness that technology. And so I think shifts and technology and shifts in demographics are, are playing a big role in the changing nature of work.
You alluded to a few of the specific skills that employers are looking for, could you give us some more examples of the types of skills that companies are looking to hire for?
We do share we do we do a Skill Survey every couple of years, and we survey some of the biggest companies. And we’ll be doing another one, this fall, actually. And we’re looking to cast a bigger net and to include both the big companies and the smaller and medium sized ones as well. And that’s exactly what we asked them what are what are the skills that you’re that you’re looking for. So we’ve been doing that since 2016. And interestingly, year over year, what came back were at the top of the list were the human skills. And that’s, we all often call them social emotional skills as well. So that’s what I was referring to before. So it was you know, I mean, in that in that bucket of skills is a lot of the obvious ones, you know, communication, writing oral communication, that was remaining, you know, critical. But we’ve seen added to that list is things like courage and resiliency, cross cultural team collaboration, intercultural collaboration. So these are the skills that continue to come back year over year. And I think part of that is a commentary on the fact that work continues to change. And so we need people, workers who will change with it. So and that’s, you know, that to me is, that’s part of that narrative of lifelong learning, but also the adaptability to change with work. So it used to be that you could be probably really good at that one thing and make a career out of it. That’s not the case anymore. So we need, we need workers who can adapt and change along the way. So now we are seeing though, on the technical skill side, and it’s hard to get too specific on that, because it’s unique to every sector, and every every company in every industry, but we are seeing technical skills, move up the list in terms of what companies need, but we’re seeing more, we’re seeing more specificity and what companies need in that sense. Versus just you have to be good with computers. So maybe more more specific requirements around you know, data analysis and cybersecurity and things like that.
So in many households, when your children get to be a certain age, let’s say you’ve done your best as a parent to expose them to all kinds of different things. But then the rubber hits the road and they have to make specific decisions on courses to choose in high school and, you know, moving on into university and college whatever they choose, how can a parent support during that time, in your opinion, in what we’re talking about here, which is, you know, oftentimes kids have no idea. They’re good at many things, some of them, there’s a lot of different considerations. So what would you suggest?
Oh, I love that question too. We talk a lot around here about some hour about what we call alternate labor market information. So and by within that sounds technical, but what I what I mean there is, what I would love for young people to do is to think a lot more about the kind of career and life they want. And then think about what jobs might fit into that. So because so often, it’s heartbreaking, but people pursued diplomas or degrees, and they decide halfway through that, that they’re, you know, it’s the wrong choice, or they pursue careers that don’t, they’re not a great fit for because of one pressure or decision or another. But if we could have young people starting to think earlier about, Do I want to live in a city? Do I want to have a nine to five job? Or do I want the security of a government paycheck versus assuming some element of risk in the private sector? So are my entrepreneurial and want to employ myself or you know, or develop something on my own? These kinds of things, we don’t, don’t often factor into the conversations with young people it’s do I want to be an economist or an engineer. So and we think about it largely through the lens of the, of the occupation. So but we know now and we hear with younger people, they prioritize work life balance differently than maybe our parents did, and that sort of stuff. But thinking about, I say to my nine year old, he loves Lamborghinis, I say, if you if you want to buy a Lamborghini, then that’s going to there’s a particular subset of jobs and education, you need to be able to afford that. So, but that’s kind of my backhanded way of getting him to think about think about that. But But man, I would love that the alternative labor market information, I mean, as if we could provide, and this is something we’re trying to work on. But we can provide young people with those kinds of career paths. Or maybe it’s a life path. And then think about which careers make sense to fit with it. Because that’s also one of the biggest, you know, success or failure rates. I think, for people who do do a job, you know, you might get into into a government job, and it’s not the right fit for you for a bunch of reasons. And if only you ever thought about what that was before you got there.
So when you talk about thinking about what kind of life and career you want to have, how do you see the role of the school? Or the educational institution in that equation?
Are you in the context of K to 12? Are you thinking or post secondary? Or all
the above? Yeah, all of the above, but mainly post secondary,
mainly post secondary, high school? Yeah, for sure. There’s a new pressure, I have to imagine on the career offices or guidance offices, and in K to 12, for sure to provide more, a lot more information about what’s happening in the in the labor market, and that sort of thing. We know for sure, at the post secondary level, huge pressure, huge growth of career services and Co Op offices these days. Because the labor market outcome of graduates, the employability of graduates, everybody’s that’s the top concern, I think for for everybody these days, so, so but I don’t exactly know how, and this is a another, I’d love to be able to crack but how to help better resource the K to 12 side of that. So because I know that’s probably asking a lot for them to even do what I’m suggesting about to where that information exists. That’s a big part of what we do try to do at the business higher education roundtable, which is to build tools and resources to help people make more informed decisions. We spoke, for example, with employers across the country when we were trying to build work integrated learning programs, and said, What are your barriers to creating opportunities for young people, and it wasn’t paying the student. That was the was the big challenge. Interestingly enough, more often than not, it was knowing how to mentor, how to provide proper assessment, what it meant to create an equitable, diverse and inclusive experience. And so we started to build the tools and resources to give it to the employers so that they actually could do make more informed decisions and have the tools they needed to actually do this. I suspect in the post secondary, post secondary, I think are pretty strong on all of that the K to 12 probably could use a lot more of those kinds of resources, as opposed to just thinking to communicate to students about particular jobs or job pathways, because again, connected to the other story, those jobs probably won’t exist. But that’s maybe not the not the ideal way to talk to them either. And I’m not sure if that answers your question.
No, it does for sure. So when We talk about work integrated learning, which is a big part of what your role involves experiential learning is what it’s also referred to in some, in some spheres. What does that look like? Ideally, what does a good work integrated program in a school look like?
Oh, you’re really in our wheelhouse. So, you know, are, we’re helping the federal government deliver on their commitment to getting every post secondary student or work experience before they graduate. This is something the Liberal government committed to in 2019, as part of as part of that budget, the her had to kind of led a parade or a coalition of companies and post secondaries and associations to get the government to make that commitment, in part to solve that challenge. I mentioned at the outset about companies saying we don’t aren’t getting this graduates with the skills they need. So but of course, there’s multiple different types of work integrated learning experiences, and we’re big champions of trying to figure out what experience makes the most amount of sense in the best sense for, for the student and for the employer. So there’s traditional what we would call structured work experience, you imagine the student goes in for a four month Co Op term. In the skilled trades, it’s, it’s apprenticeships. So those get us so far, and where those kinds of experiences make sense for students than that and our ideal, that’s probably what you might call your Deluxe work experience. But we know though, that there’s as many different types of potential work integrated learning opportunities, as there are students and especially for students with disabilities, newcomers to Canada, indigenous and rural and remote youth, we probably need to create other types of work experiences for them that don’t involve going and sitting in an office for four months or working on a site. And so that’s a big part of what we try to do at V her is to actually figure out how to develop out an experience that makes sense for the employer and for the student. And that reduces a lot of the different barriers. So but any instance in which there’s an applied work context, whether it’s a project, you know, a company can provide a project that students work on, they can go into a field study, we are fans of doing, developing, you know, a player doing something with the arts, anything where there’s a work or some kind of applied experience counts, I think so. And but we also like, we’re also, you know, on the quality front, really committed to ensuring that there’s some kind of mentorship so that the student gets gets feedback, and there’s some kind of reflective practice along the way. They think about what happened, you know, that experience that they are assessed and provided feedback, as well. So there are some trappings that you can layer in, even if it’s a short work experience or a longer one. So that’s a long answer to that question, but I could
well, and then I guess the follow up there would be is there an ideal age or grade, that work integrated learning should be introduced in an educational institution,
this is part of the fun, I think, in the benefit of, of there being different innovative types of work integrated learning. So probably, we don’t want K to 12 students in a in a, in a company, but but we could bring applied real world challenges into the classroom for them. And that has that that work context for them and getting them thinking in that way. So but we do believe in and we’re committed as as the government to getting every student at least in post secondary before they graduate some kind of work experience. Wherever there’s a there’s because there are different types if you can and first year have a particular type of wheel, that’s maybe a smaller project base, we’ll invite before you graduate, do that apply to work experience, we’re actually off campus and doing something in the field, then I think there isn’t a one size fits all there isn’t an ideal, but but some kind of accumulation of work experience before you graduate. We know the outcomes for students, the employability outcomes, they, you know, they they gain that real world experience, they they develop a network, somebody who knows them. A big part of what we’re trying to get where we’re trying to get to is to have new graduates be able to articulate the skills they have. And I think that’s been one of the ongoing challenges we talk about it it sounds like a overly convoluted word but that skills articulation pieces is really, really important. I I did three degrees in history. I don’t really brag about that and came out to not stinking thinking my career options were to you know, work in a museum or an archive and none of that really interested me or be a teacher of course, too. And that wasn’t the path doesn’t for either, but I thought that’s that’s all I could do. But it didn’t occur to me or I hadn’t been conditioned or through the course syllabi, or all the years I spent in school. I didn’t I hadn’t had that conversation about here’s the skills you actually have. And this is what an employer wants to know about. Not that you know a whole lot about the industrial revolution. So there were the subject, so that that, and I think that I didn’t get a co op or work experience or anything along the way other than other than summer jobs. But part of the benefit of that experience, that work experience is that it helps us helps the young people understand the skills they have, because they get to apply them, and then turn around and communicate that to an employer when they’re sitting in front of them for an interview.
So beyond exposing kids to as many different opportunities, beyond work, integrated and experiential learning opportunities in schools, is there anything else that we can and should be doing to lessen and, you know, less than the gap between how kids are being prepared for tomorrow’s jobs?
What kind of things do you have in mind here?
I don’t know. I wonder if there’s anything else that can be done? Should we be educating teachers potentially in a different way about how to incorporate this in their curriculum? I, you know, I don’t know, these are sort of probably beyond the scope of what you what you guys are focused on? Perhaps?
That’s it? It’s another good question. And there is a lot of talk in the in our space around training the trainers. And so for sure, there is a point I mean, of, of rethinking that, and layering more, and I think, where often the conversation goes, though, is about the capacity of the trainer of the teacher or the professor to do it. And so that’s part of what we need to think through. So there’s a lot of asked these days, especially in K to 12, of, of teachers, with individualized learning plans and for in a classroom, so through to their all the other demands on their jobs. And I know, professors, whether they’re in college or university would say the same thing. So part of it, and part of what we try to think through is how do we layer in the extra support, so they extra, in this case, career training, without adding to the burden of say, the teacher or the or the professor in the classroom. And so, in that sense, it might be, you know, in our case, we support the career services office to provide that support alongside the professor. So I can see that probably being something that could, that that will need to trickle down into the into K to 12. In the future as well.
You alluded earlier to the survey that be her will be conducting. I’m interested in the one that was done last year, were there any particular findings in the 2022 survey that struck you as somebody who is in the weeds of this and thinks about this very topic, on a regular basis.
Thanks for asking about that. This week, we talk a lot about that survey when we can and we’re excited to see what the next one will, will find as well. One of the exciting findings comes from what we see as a steady growth and partnerships between post secondary and industry. So when we first started that out, it was I want to say in the in the 70s. So it was the range of about 70% or so. And we’ve seen that climb up through 2022 to enter the 90% range. And so that to us, is a, you know, validation for an organization like us that, you know, is designed, specifically and has our mandate to bring together business in higher education, but also speaks to the increasing demand for the realization that no, no one side can do this alone. And that’s one of our sort of talking points. So and working together, working collaboratively, which is what work integrated learning emphatically is results from a partnership between the school and multiple companies to provide experiences for the young people, that the steady growth of that, I think, is not not surprising, but exciting for us and something we’re quite pleased with and proud of, to whatever extent we’ve been able to help along the way.
Now what we’re talking about here with respect to the gap between the skills that kids are being taught in schools and and what they’re, you know, being asked for in the workforce. That gap is not a new situation in Canada. Why, though, is a different now? In what ways? Is it different? No.
That’s a good question. I was I spoke the other day that a global male and are variations on this theme and that we’re seeing, we’re seeing more and more questions about this. Why why now I would say this, there’s been a misalignment between post secondary and in the world have worked for a long time. Both have kind of operated and in their own silos. And but in the past, maybe our parents generation, they could graduate with a diploma or a degree and get a job and have a relatively successful career. So over time, the complexity of jobs today, the complexity of the job market, that it Try to avoid the hyperbole whenever I can. But the fast changing nature of it means that what we’re seeing is that new graduates are taking longer to land and to find that the job in the field they that that’s the right fit for them. We’ve We’ve heard the narrative about the barista with the BA, there’s a long standing narrative in Canada of underemployed PhDs, who don’t get a job in academia and then struggle with that transition. I lived and breathed that one myself, I called it my wilderness years. So it took me a long time to figure out as I was saying before, what my skills were and to articulate it to an employer before then make traction. So it’s that it’s that it’s that transition period, that I think in part because of the complexity of the labor market that has now created a new urgency around this conversation and a new urgency to try to solve it. So especially in an environment when we need more people. And there are labor shortage or the looming, the labor market is full, we need more people. So so there’s there’s a new urgency right now for sure.
Many organizations, particularly in the US, in terms of the research that I was able to uncover, have turned to creating their own workforces and educating their own workers to potentially work with that organization down the line, meeting the specific needs of that company. An example that comes to mind is Caterpillar University. Right? Is this a trend that you see having a place? And if so, is this something that should be done more?
It’s definitely a trend, it’s probably actually just a normal thing that’s been happening for a long time. To be honest. There are some varied instances of that we be hurt convened a skills working group. Also last year, there’s another report next to the Skill Survey where we brought together about 10 of the big companies in Canada and asked them exactly this, what are you doing? When it comes to skilling rescaling upskilling your employees, and the biggest companies were doing it themselves more often than not, and had developed their own programs, their own universities? So and this goes speaks to that siloing? I was I was saying before, we talked to them and say, Why is that and they spoke about the barriers they faced and partnering with a post secondary institution to do that. So there’s a perceptions about the sluggishness of a post secondary institution, particularly university to be agile enough to develop a course that they that they need. So but our Of course, mandate is to bring both sides together. So both secondaries, that’s what they’re good at is the curriculum design and pedagogy and the, you know, they provide all the wraparound services for learners so that they can be supported along the way so. And it pains us to see the duplication of efforts in Canada, even among a for profit company to reinvent or reinvent courses that probably exists somewhere else. So. So yes, we are seeing that, I think that the next level, and so we would love for companies increasingly to first call or figure out a way called the here and we’ll connect them if that’s helpful, but to find a way to before they develop their own thing, to partner with a post secondary to do that. But the next level down, I think, issue there is about the transferability or portability of those companies specific programs. So no critique on what that program is, but it’s probably designed to suit suit that particular company. And but for the ability for that person to leave and go somewhere else. That part, I don’t know that the labor market has proven that that one yet. So, and which is fine if the person is a graduate of a post secondary, and that’s part of their work experience that upskilling course they took at Caterpillar university. But what what I’m cognizant of and, and a little bit fearful of is the is the idea that that might be the only thing that a, you know, a young person might need. And you know, just the caterpillar, you are just the Google certificate. Because that’s where I worry about, how about their longevity and portability. And in the job market, recognizing very few people these days stay at one place forever.
Now, Matthew is a father yourself with a 12 year old and a nine year old, you’re still in the exposure phase to a large extent. What what is your approach on this topic? And with the added perspective that you bring as somebody who’s, you know, researches this topic and looks at it on a daily basis? What do you bring in terms of your approach to with your own kids?
Oh, man, I’m probably deeply frustrating to them. So it’s definitely to as I say, expose them to as many different things not to go all in on one thing so that can work and has worked. So for a lot of kids, but but for mine, we like to expose them to as many different activities and, and to develop as many different skill sets. What’s maybe when I say maybe annoying to them is that I’m always asking them to talk about what it is that they’ve just done or what they’ve just read to tell me the story of it. And that’s partly me probably because of my humanities background, that to me is this is me realizing what skill I had, which was to tell stories, not about very specific wars or anything like that, but to take information, translate it in some kind of accessible way and, and tell a story. And so I’m relentlessly asking them to tell me a story about their day or about what they just read or that activity they did. And so that to me, I hope will serve them well in the future.
At finally, what do you believe in the short, medium and long term needs to be done to address actively address the skills gap?
I’m gonna say more a more applied experience. So I say that as somebody who, who spent most of my life just reading books, I realized that, that the applied work experience makes all the difference. And it can make all the difference for for young people. Now I know that doesn’t mean that won’t work for K to 12, as well as it will for for post secondary. But that’s the best answer we have right now. Some kind of work integrated learning to close skills gaps and help bring post secondary industry and a bit closer together.
Matthew, can I ask you with respect to certain household certain families, parents have a really large say, in what their kids choose as a career or even courses in high school into university? What can you say about that, because oftentimes, they end up taking something very general like business, for example.
For sure, and I will, I’ll be careful not to step on parents toes. But But I think it kind of goes back to something I was saying earlier about labor market alignment. And I totally understand that parents have their own goals and aspirations for their kids and the direction they want to, they want them to go in but it is important to look at what the labor market actually needs. So at the moment, there isn’t a huge demand for people with a business diploma or degree. So in the same way that nobody’s particularly asking, and I can say this was the bleeding heart humanities person with a history degree. That doesn’t mean we shouldn’t necessarily take those, those, those programs and it goes back to if you do being able to articulate the skills that you have. But that kind of preoccupation with you must do a particular career might be actually doing those, those kids a disservice if there isn’t actually a career pathway for them.
Wonderful. Thank you so much, Matthew. It’s been a pleasure. You got it. Have a great rest of the day.
Studies conducted annually by BHER of companies both large and small have found that employers are looking for human (also known as social-emotional) skills above all else. They want people who know how to communicate effectively, who possess courage and resilience and the ability to collaborate across cultural differences. There is some mention of technical skills, though these are becoming more specific over time.
Most want employees with some previous work experience, even if it’s not technical. Just knowing how to collaborate, meet deadlines, and engage with others is valuable, which is why there has been an increasing emphasis from the Canadian federal government on access to work-integrated (or experiential) learning opportunities.
Parents should expose their children to as many different jobs as possible, McKean said. This will help them to determine where their interests and skills lie. “What we know from a lot of the work that we’ve done is that young people, new grads, people entering the workforce, need to have transferable, adaptable skills—what we call the ‘human skills’—above and beyond anything else. And that’s what we hear from employers, too.” In other words, don’t get too specific too soon.
McKean recommends talking to kids early on about what kind of lifestyle they want, and then choosing a job that supports it. There are valuable questions that can shape a young person’s choice of occupation:
“Do I want to live in a city? Do I want to have a nine-to-five job? Or do I want the security of a government paycheck versus assuming some element of risk in the private sector? Am I entrepreneurial and want to employ myself, or, you know, develop something on my own? These kinds of things are not often factored into the conversations with young people. It’s ‘do I want to be an economist or an engineer?’”
McKean calls this “alternative labour market information” and told Castelino he wishes it were more prevalent in discussions with young people. Relatedly, young people should look at what the labour market needs when selecting a career, not jump into a general degree, such as business, just because they think it might be useful.
Graduates would do well to learn to articulate the skills they have, too, not just list the training they’ve received. Often, seemingly irrelevant degrees come with highly relevant skill sets; McKean used his own three history degrees as an example of training that has made him an expert storyteller and communicator.
BHER is working hard to bridge the gap between existing skills and job requirements and to prepare young people for a job market that is considerably more complex than it was in the past. McKean’s advice may help you as a parent to feel better equipped to navigate this strange and shifting territory.
McKean spoke to Where Parents Talk from Ottawa, Ontario.